Jean Vanier on CBC Radio One's "As It Happens" on Thursday 26 May, 2016
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-tuesday-edition-1.3609214/jean-vanier-founder-of-l-arche-urges-caution-on-doctor-assisted-dying-law-1.3609219
or
https://youtu.be/fzsLEFQuOPw
Transcript:
Introduction:
The deadline is looming, parliament is under pressure to pass legislation governing assisted dying by June 6th. The Supreme Court gave it 16 months to craft the bill, some now say that wasn't enough time to get it right. Even within the liberal party, critics complain the law is too restrictive, it's legally flawed, and to those who still oppose the idea, completely unacceptable.
The deadline is looming, parliament is under pressure to pass legislation governing assisted dying by June 6th. The Supreme Court gave it 16 months to craft the bill, some now say that wasn't enough time to get it right. Even within the liberal party, critics complain the law is too restrictive, it's legally flawed, and to those who still oppose the idea, completely unacceptable.
With the clock ticking loudly, anyone with an opinion is fighting to be heard, and one voice that has been consistently, quietly urging caution belongs to 87 year old Jean Vanier. He is the Canadian founder of the L'Arche foundation, which is a network of communities that supports people with intellectual disabilities. We reached Mr. Vanier in Trosly-Breuil, France.
Carol Off:
Mr. Vanier, I know you have been following the debate here in Canada as our government forms a law on physician assisted dying. What do you think is the most important thing for law makers to keep in mind while they do that?
Mr. Vanier, I know you have been following the debate here in Canada as our government forms a law on physician assisted dying. What do you think is the most important thing for law makers to keep in mind while they do that?
Jean Vanier:
My question is always how to put into legislation certain safeguards. Now there are people who are terribly lonely, they want to die, so what help is getting to people who feel lonely, and how to think about a society where were more concerned for each other and trying to love each other and help each other. The whole vision that we can fall into is that if somebody really wants to die, we've spoken about it, and then we can talk about assisted suicide. We're putting a lot in the hands of the medical without putting many safeguards in.
My question is always how to put into legislation certain safeguards. Now there are people who are terribly lonely, they want to die, so what help is getting to people who feel lonely, and how to think about a society where were more concerned for each other and trying to love each other and help each other. The whole vision that we can fall into is that if somebody really wants to die, we've spoken about it, and then we can talk about assisted suicide. We're putting a lot in the hands of the medical without putting many safeguards in.
Carol Off:
What I'm hearing you saying is that when lawmakers are crafting this law that we would have in Canada, they should keep in mind the vulnerable, the lonely, the idea that some people are, young people especially, already so many of them have a tendency toward suicide, but at the same time do not lawmakers have to keep in mind those people who are in intense pain, who are facing a lifetime of suffering, whatever is left of the lives. To what degree do their rights have to be balanced out in this?
What I'm hearing you saying is that when lawmakers are crafting this law that we would have in Canada, they should keep in mind the vulnerable, the lonely, the idea that some people are, young people especially, already so many of them have a tendency toward suicide, but at the same time do not lawmakers have to keep in mind those people who are in intense pain, who are facing a lifetime of suffering, whatever is left of the lives. To what degree do their rights have to be balanced out in this?
Jean Vanier:
Yes, I mean that's where we have to look in to it. The encouraging of palliative care is important because palliative care is the question of controlling pain. That is a fundamental question, not to go to quickly into that. There should be a right for somebody who really wants to die because of the intense pain. I obviously except that, but the question is how to encourage palliative care because we can move quite quickly into just the rights of a person who's in pain. It's really being attentive to those who are in pain and how can we help people during these periods, to die peacefully.
Yes, I mean that's where we have to look in to it. The encouraging of palliative care is important because palliative care is the question of controlling pain. That is a fundamental question, not to go to quickly into that. There should be a right for somebody who really wants to die because of the intense pain. I obviously except that, but the question is how to encourage palliative care because we can move quite quickly into just the rights of a person who's in pain. It's really being attentive to those who are in pain and how can we help people during these periods, to die peacefully.
Carol Off:
Do you think that people should have a legal right to choose the timing of their death and to have assistance in doing that?
Do you think that people should have a legal right to choose the timing of their death and to have assistance in doing that?
Jean Vanier:
People can go through periods of just fatigue, depression, loneliness, so we mustn't go too quickly and just say there's a legal right. They also have a legal right to be walked with, accompanied, and helped.
People can go through periods of just fatigue, depression, loneliness, so we mustn't go too quickly and just say there's a legal right. They also have a legal right to be walked with, accompanied, and helped.
Carol Off:
I realize you're not a lawyer and you're talking from a point of view of a man of faith, from a philosophical point of view, from a man who cares for the vulnerable. I guess the problem for lawmakers is they have to make a law based on individual rights. You talk about interdependence, the importance of seeing families, but our charter is based on the unit of society being the individual, and the rights of the individual are those that lawmakers have to craft their legislation on. What advice can you give them?
I realize you're not a lawyer and you're talking from a point of view of a man of faith, from a philosophical point of view, from a man who cares for the vulnerable. I guess the problem for lawmakers is they have to make a law based on individual rights. You talk about interdependence, the importance of seeing families, but our charter is based on the unit of society being the individual, and the rights of the individual are those that lawmakers have to craft their legislation on. What advice can you give them?
Jean Vanier:
I hear what you're saying, that everybody is independent, of course we're all also interdependent. We need all to be loved in order to find the beauty of life, and of course what we see here in all our communities of L'Arche are people come to us who maybe are quite violent, who are in depression, but then they discover something, they discover that their loved. I quite agree how can lawmakers ... But lawmakers should also realize the human being, we're born in weakness and we die in weakness, and that we're all vulnerable, and that we all always need help. Society needs to encourage opening up our hearts to those who are weaker and more fragile.
I hear what you're saying, that everybody is independent, of course we're all also interdependent. We need all to be loved in order to find the beauty of life, and of course what we see here in all our communities of L'Arche are people come to us who maybe are quite violent, who are in depression, but then they discover something, they discover that their loved. I quite agree how can lawmakers ... But lawmakers should also realize the human being, we're born in weakness and we die in weakness, and that we're all vulnerable, and that we all always need help. Society needs to encourage opening up our hearts to those who are weaker and more fragile.
Carol Off:
You've said elsewhere that one of the things that alarms you is that people in our societies, in our individualistic societies, often feel ashamed when we ask for help. How does that play in to the debate on physician assisted dying? What is it about feeling that shame from being needy, or helpless, that alarms you?
You've said elsewhere that one of the things that alarms you is that people in our societies, in our individualistic societies, often feel ashamed when we ask for help. How does that play in to the debate on physician assisted dying? What is it about feeling that shame from being needy, or helpless, that alarms you?
Jean Vanier:
There's something in society that's going wrong when we are thinking all the time that people have to be perfectly independent, perfectly strong, where in reality, my God, we need each other. We need help. We need good doctors. We need the old people's homes where there's caring, and where there's not just 1 or 2 nurses or helpers looking after too many people. Nobody has time to listen to each other. What I'm saying is there's a fundamental sickness in our society, and how can we little by little discover this, to move from the "I" to the "We", that we're all fragile, we all need help, and yet at the same time we all have strengths. The extraordinary thing here in L'Arche is that so many people with disabilities, they bring forth within us a capacity to love and to be in communion with one another and to have fun.
There's something in society that's going wrong when we are thinking all the time that people have to be perfectly independent, perfectly strong, where in reality, my God, we need each other. We need help. We need good doctors. We need the old people's homes where there's caring, and where there's not just 1 or 2 nurses or helpers looking after too many people. Nobody has time to listen to each other. What I'm saying is there's a fundamental sickness in our society, and how can we little by little discover this, to move from the "I" to the "We", that we're all fragile, we all need help, and yet at the same time we all have strengths. The extraordinary thing here in L'Arche is that so many people with disabilities, they bring forth within us a capacity to love and to be in communion with one another and to have fun.
Carol Off:
You have said elsewhere that what worries you about the physician assisted dying is that so many people feel that they are a burden to their societies, to their families, to their friends. How does that play in to the problems of having a law that allows for physician assisted dying?
You have said elsewhere that what worries you about the physician assisted dying is that so many people feel that they are a burden to their societies, to their families, to their friends. How does that play in to the problems of having a law that allows for physician assisted dying?
Jean Vanier:
There again, lawmakers should look into this, it's not just a quest of legislation about death, but we should also have legislation about life. To help people to live, and to live fully, and to create situations where people who are in depression, communities where people can find healing. There's the actual reality of somebody in a lot of pain, but also there's a reality of how can we encourage a society to becoming more caring for the weak and the fragile. I always come back to that and you will come back to shouldn't we have some legislation to permit this, I say yes but let's put in safeguards. We need more and more people who will be sort of mediators so life can come. What is important is that people can be fully living, we are all people where we are weak and strong at the same time and the unity of a human being is when we can bring these 2 things together. All legislation is not just independence, legislation is to help people to become more human and to help them become fully alive in various situations. Fully alive as they get older, fully alive as they go into a period of pension, fully alive when their going into old people's homes, fully alive also in sickness, or cancer, or whatever it is. To help people to hold on to the beauty of life where we can help each other to become more human.
There again, lawmakers should look into this, it's not just a quest of legislation about death, but we should also have legislation about life. To help people to live, and to live fully, and to create situations where people who are in depression, communities where people can find healing. There's the actual reality of somebody in a lot of pain, but also there's a reality of how can we encourage a society to becoming more caring for the weak and the fragile. I always come back to that and you will come back to shouldn't we have some legislation to permit this, I say yes but let's put in safeguards. We need more and more people who will be sort of mediators so life can come. What is important is that people can be fully living, we are all people where we are weak and strong at the same time and the unity of a human being is when we can bring these 2 things together. All legislation is not just independence, legislation is to help people to become more human and to help them become fully alive in various situations. Fully alive as they get older, fully alive as they go into a period of pension, fully alive when their going into old people's homes, fully alive also in sickness, or cancer, or whatever it is. To help people to hold on to the beauty of life where we can help each other to become more human.
Carol Off:
If you don't mind, one final personal question. I'm wondering, can you imagine circumstances in which you might choose to end your life and to seek assistance to do so?
If you don't mind, one final personal question. I'm wondering, can you imagine circumstances in which you might choose to end your life and to seek assistance to do so?
Jean Vanier:
It's certainly a very personal question, and I would say no. I can't see ... You see, I have never lived in intense pain. My own situation is that I lived in community, I'm with people, I know I'm loved and I love people, I've accompanied quite a lot of people in their death bed. I can say here in L'Arche we have become quite frequently friends of death. That can sound strange, but when people die here we have a big celebration and we talk about them, we have photos of them, we laugh and we cry, because even on their death beds we can hold their hands, look into their eyes and say I love you.
It's certainly a very personal question, and I would say no. I can't see ... You see, I have never lived in intense pain. My own situation is that I lived in community, I'm with people, I know I'm loved and I love people, I've accompanied quite a lot of people in their death bed. I can say here in L'Arche we have become quite frequently friends of death. That can sound strange, but when people die here we have a big celebration and we talk about them, we have photos of them, we laugh and we cry, because even on their death beds we can hold their hands, look into their eyes and say I love you.
Carol Off:
Mr. Vanier, it's a great pleasure to speak with you. Very wise words needed at this difficult time when were making these decisions here in Canada. Thank you very much for speaking with us.
Mr. Vanier, it's a great pleasure to speak with you. Very wise words needed at this difficult time when were making these decisions here in Canada. Thank you very much for speaking with us.
Jean Vanier:
Thank you for asking me, peace to you.
Thank you for asking me, peace to you.
Carol Off:
Thank you, you too, bye bye.
Thank you, you too, bye bye.
Jean Vanier:
Bye bye.
Bye bye.
Conclusion:
Jean Vanier is the founder of L'Arche Foundation, it's a network of communities that supports people with intellectual disabilities. We reached him in Trosly-Breuil, France.
Jean Vanier is the founder of L'Arche Foundation, it's a network of communities that supports people with intellectual disabilities. We reached him in Trosly-Breuil, France.
