The Faith of our Orthodox Church is Upright
by Fr Dawood Laamy (during a Q&A session)
(Translated from Arabic by Andrew Bakhit)
Q: Why do we always feel that the Orthodox are closed-minded?
A: I am Orthodox personally, but I’m not closed minded; or at least I don’t think that I am. My beloved, look, there is a difference between holding firmly and being closed minded. And the Scripture instructs “hold fast to what you have” (Rev 3:11). St Paul instructed St Timothy to “guard what has been entrusted to him” (1 Tim 6:20). We (the Orthodox) are holding fast and being discreet. This is how it should be. But we are neither extremists, nor are we .. what is the word you used .. closed-minded. This is not who we are. Look here, my beloved, we cannot follow a general calling that does not have a foundation, saying, “we are all one.” What does ‘we are all one mean?’ We are all one in lovingkindess – we certainly are, there is no argument here. We are one family called Christians.
Until here, we are good. But how are we one if your Church denies priesthood – who am I to you then? We are one, but your Church does not have a sanctuary (altar), how then can we be one? (We are not one) yet. You mock me when I fast St Mary’s fast, how are we one then? You look at me and ask, “what is this delirium, why would you fast?” Therefore, we cannot claim to be one. Dearly beloved, in the Protestant teachings we are called, and feel free to look this up, we are called non-believers. Everyone that has dogma (rite), and has incense, and has priesthood is a non-believer! This is how we are looked upon. And if we begin to discuss this, they call us extremists. In their books we are unfaithful, and we are charged with extremism. What do you think about that? We do not claim that they are non-believers; I am the first to say that a Protestant has faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, of course. Does he not call on the name of Jesus like I do? Then he has faith in Christ. But he says that I am unfaithful. Who at this point is an extremist? This is worth noting. And whenever they hold meetings, they take all our children, and we keep silent – and if we talk about it then we are extremists! Does this make sense to you? You can bring in people who do know of God, or others who are non-believers .. but why are you preaching to Christians (the Orthodox)? This is not right. Indeed, these claims in truth – you know when something is upside-down? When something is inverted? What is happening is not proper; that we are charged with the opposite of what we are.
Being committed to our Tradition, dogma, Churches and doctrine – this is holding ‘hold fast,’ why does this bother you? I have two thousand year history of saints who lived the mysteries, and you want me to let go of the sacrament of confession or the Eucharist or Baptism? What about the deposit I received two thousand years ago? And the Fathers, the history and the martyrs? I will tell you another thing, bear with my honesty, this movement is a western one – the Protestant movement is western. Why couldn’t they keep the faith in the west? Now-a-days Christianity in the West is collapsing. Europe was once Christian, now only ten percent are so. North America was once also Christian, now it is less than thirty percent Christian. Australia was the same, now only twenty percent Christian. Those are the lands we used to proclaim as Christian. We, as the Coptic Church, are flourishing although we are hard-pressed.
Who should follow the other? Should we follow the west that couldn’t preserve their Churches – their Churches are being sold abroad, and for cheap – because there are no occupants. And here, we are martyred to build a Church! What do you think? Who should follow the other? Should we follow after the west, after their claims and commotion just because there is a colorful shape to it? Or should we follow authenticity, history, and depth? Tell me of a Church in any part of the world that has its members pray for an entire week and not wish to stop; and that is apart from fasting – a Church that has its member fast like this. You complain about fasting .. you do (audience laugh), but hold on a little, we accept your complaint. We accept that one member skips a week. And another member due to illness; but at the end – look at the Church with all its members, the Church is fasting.
And not fasting for a day or two, but more than half the days of the year. Is there a Church successful in getting her members to fast, or having them stand for 12 hours - and those who do so await the day, Good Friday, to do so? Look at the Good Friday prayer in other Churches now-a-days, two hours at most and that’s it. And the people eat from the beginning of the day. Our members after Good Friday say, “I will go rest a little and come back” – come back? Come back where? It’s unbelievable and the people don’t perceive the state in which we are in. What do you call that? It is success within the Church and love towards Christ. And the result is to be called non-believers of Christ? I want to tell you that our Church is strong and beautiful and is ‘holding firm’ and not extremist. Some members are extremists, we will not differ – one extremist doesn’t make the entire Church to be so.
I confess openly that the Protestant preached the Gospel, and we couldn’t – due to various circumstances. Some of them died for the Gospel to be proclaimed to the ends of the world, this is something one cannot deny. The Catholic Church built the greatest schools and hospitals – and they served all of humanity; is this something small? We give credit to whomever credit is due. But are the Orthodox bad and closed-minded and extremists? And they ask to partake of Communion with us – how can I if you do not believe that it is in truth the body and blood of Christ? How? You do not share my faith and baptism. Before saying one Spirit (St Paul), he said “One Lord, one faith, one baptism” (Eph 4:5). We both confess one Lord, we has still have two more paths to work on – one faith and one baptism, we don’t agree yet.
Therefore, unity is not complete except in the one faith. One faith in all its clauses! It is not enough to only agree on the Trinity – even the way we cross ourselves we don’t agree together on. Crossing oneself is faith. Our sight upon St Mary is faith. Please be careful because some say one is good and so is the other – if the two are good then they cannot oppose each other. The Holy Spirit cannot intend in the New Testament to claim priesthood and claim in the New Testament that there isn’t priesthood! Is this acceptable? Will the Holy Spirit preach priesthood and say that there is no priesthood? With what logic? Therefore one must be correct and the other incorrect. Therefore I cannot claim all teaching to be good. Either Baptism in truth grants a new life, or it is a toke or a symbol with no value. Either one is correct or the other, but don’t tell me that both of them are correct. Don’t tell me the bible – I interpret the bible, as the Orthodox Church, and he too interprets. Who will interpret correctly? History! Why would history interpret correctly? Because there weren’t any denominations. Let’s go back fifteen centuries when there weren’t any denominations, and no schisms .. was there baptism? We keep telling you of various saints and what they taught. They spoke of priesthood, and the Eucharist and baptism and continual struggle, and repentance, and intercessions; then it is settled. The Fathers and saints is my reference. One time two youth came and spoke with me, they left Orthodoxy for another Church and didn’t come back, they joined a Protestant Church and didn’t come back. One of them came and told me, “Look Father, tell me, is your reference the Gospel or not?” I replied, “My reference is the Gospel.”
He asked, “The Gospel or the Church?” So I said, “I didn’t understand you; my reference is the Gospel AND the Church!” The youth said, “Then you are wrong!” I answered, “Judge me as you please, but I want to ask you, which is older – the Gospel or the Church?” He got confused, answered and said, “The Gospel, of course.” Then I told him that he does not know history. The Church is older than the Gospel. How? The thirty years the Apostles lived in the book of Acts, did they have a Gospel in their hands? Was there an account of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? It was not even until the end of the first Century that the account of John was written. Was there Christianity or not? Therefore the Church is older, and the Church is a reference to the Gospel. And it was the Church who canonized the Gospel and said, “This is what the Lord meant.” The Church put the cannons together. After all this, you wish for me to refute the reference of the Church so that you can interpret the Gospel on your own, and tell say to me, “The Gospel says ..” I have the Gospel! But you say different than what I say.
The Church arbitrates between us. And more than this, the devil says, “The bible says!” The devil when tempting Christ quoted Scripture, “Throw yourself down and the angels will carry you.” And he quoted the verse perfectly; “He will give his angels chare of you to guard you in all your ways. On their hands they will bear you up, lest you dash your foot against a stone” (Ps 90.11,12). But its interpretation is wrong! Throw yourself – incorrect interpretation. So Christ replied, “You shall not tempt the Lord your God.” Thus, not everyone who holds a bible and teaches from it will speak the Lord’s teaching; no! And not everyone who claims a teaching from the Holy Spirit will be truly from the Holy Spirit, no! Of course it may not be from the Holy Spirit. Because it is not possible for the Holy Spirit to refute His Spirit – He won’t oppose himself. Therefore the bible directs us to “test the spirit” (1 Jn 4.1). Test the spirit. Not everyone who claims Christianity is correct.
Arius was a priest in Alexandria and was a good speaker. He too claimed, “The bible says.” Do you know how St Athanasius replied? He replied, “But the Church doesn’t say so.” The verse says, “The Father is greater than I” (Jn 14.28), St Athanasius acknowledged, but replied, “The Church doesn’t say so!” St Athanasius told Arius how the Church interprets the verse, and explained it to him – and all the Bishops were impressed with Athanasius and confessed that he is correct; this deacon is correct – that priest is wrong. They were a deacon and a priest, and both were Egyptians. Athanasius in front of Arius – but Arius wanted to interpret with his own head thus he understood wrong; he interpreted that Christ was not God! Athanasius absorbed the Church’s teaching and claimed, “This is not how we received the teaching.” Therefore we cannot let go of what we received even if they accuse us of extremism, with all due respect, they may accuse us as they wish. It is seldom that I attend a meeting like this and not receive a similar question – you are closed-minded, extremists, and rigorous.
Almost daily I receive a similar sheet of paper. And I see otherwise! I truly see that our children are taken away from us, and if we open our mouths, we are said to be ‘this and that.’ This isn’t proper. I feel pity when a youth leaves and a few years later I ask him why he didn’t receive communion, and he replies, “Communion? And is that real?” My son, you were brought up in our Church; you were baptized Orthodox. Your parents are servants; you know hymns – what happened to you? He replies, “I came to the knowledge of Christ.” Why, didn’t you know him, even when you were younger? Who else do we speak of in our Churches, if you just got to know him? This is saddening. They have convinced him that our Christ is not the true Christ; our Christ is an idol!
That is being taught. They say we worship idols. Because we have incense – it is mentioned in Revelation, Malachi, and in other books as well. We raise incense to God, and no one else but God. And is it still idols? Lord have mercy. Let us be wronged as Christ was, there is no harm there. But the dangerous part is our children when they are dazzled. This feeling is not necessarily true, nor is it repentance, or the work of the Holy Spirit. There is a movement called ‘Charismatic movement.’ A 50’s movement, it is full of emotion and excitement. This movement started abroad seventy or 80 years ago, and it is this movement that caused the collapse in the western Churches, just so you know. Until an hundred years ago, Sunday to Christian was of great value.
This emotional movement that you see on the foreign channels, people yell and fall, and do other things .. and tongues, this emotional movement, what is it built on? It is based on the declined self-state of the individual – psychologically exhausted. This charge to the self and emotion causes a kind of astonishment – they are down, so there is this pull – it is charismatic. So it attracts many with great attention, and greatly influences their state of mind and emotions, and begins to move them in any direction it wishes. If they feel like dancing, they dance – clapping, they clap – falling, they fall. This is all from psychological influence. This is all written and studied in psychology, you will find it in books. This is not the work of the Holy Spirit at all, with all due respect to what is said. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of meekness; quietude.
We didn’t see Christ making people fall or scream – rather he would talk for hours, for hours he would talk and the people would be listening in joy to the stories and the intelligible way by which he speaks, with the depth of it and the meaning that enters their mind. But there weren’t any of these strange reactions. The emotional movement leads the ones involved to be addicted to this state. They become addicted to this wind, similar to one who inclined to a certain kind of music or a certain environment. And then the name of Christ is mentioned as if it’s nothing, and with no difficulty, just like it was mentioned in the book of Acts that non-Christians used the name of Christ. The devil also said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?” (Acts 19.15). Therefore, the use of Jesus’ name is not evidence for a certain movement to be correct in faith or the teaching is upright, of course not.
And frequently Christ warned us that by his name many things will happen. What does this movement do? It provides one with the state of euphoria or self-comfort to convince one that there has been a change and now he’s a new person, and he’s this, that, and the other. This movement opposes the teachings of the Gospel. I will tell you why. It does not focus on perpetual repentance, and to Gospel instructs, “Unless you repent you will all likewise, perish” (Lk 13.3). The movement weakens the Church’s standing in general, and the stature of the mysteries. It does not emphasize partaking of the Eucharist, or confession, or fasting .. ‘no, no. Now you are a good person! You have come to the knowledge of Christ. Christ loves you, and you have become someone new.’ A new person, how, without repentance? And a new person how without baptism? The faith is not correct. And this emotional and excitation movement brings comfort to the self, like we said before. However, it strikes one with a kind of pride – self-righteousness. ‘I am good person, I have become .. , I .. , I .. , I ..’ And this morning I told you that the word “I” is disastrous. Right? And we said that what hinders us from the Kingdom of Heaven is the word “I”. “If any man would come after me, let him deny himself” (Mt 16.24). That’s why you will also notice, our spiritual songs always have this kind broke-spirit. They mock us for that too – “those Orthodox people are gloomy.” Gloomy? Repentance has become gloominess? When I humble myself and tremble before the Lord that has become gloominess? And this commotion and happiness (that they have), is that the true spiritual joy? Come, and I will tell you how to taste true joy in repentance. Come and I will give you a taste of how the Liturgy is full of joy that cannot be uttered. Come and I will give you a taste of how much joy is in the praises, which is full of humility.
But you are telling me that all this commotion is joyful and repentance is gloomy? Then we flipped the scales and fooled others. You mean to tell me that the sinful woman brings sadness? How does that make any sense? We are fooling each other if we say so. Where did the teachings of Christ go then, who taught us to repent, and the teachings emphasized in the Gospel of continuous repentance? This movement leads a person to trust in himself, even spiritually, and is ready to go out and preach. On what basis? On what basis do you claim to be full of the Spirit? Have you become Stephen, full of the Spirit? But Stephen was altogether different than this. There is a difference between the image of the self and the spirit, and the bible says that as well – concerned with the self but without spirit.
Therefore we are threatened with movements that look bright on the outside, charismatic, but this is not what changes the heart, this is not what builds the person from within. The true individual takes it step by step. He may fall, but he gets back up. I also want to tell you, among the movements there is another one that is also popular abroad, and that is after a certain day you do no make mistakes. Since you know Christ you won’t make any errors again. And as long as you believe then the kingdom is guaranteed – “whoever believes in him should not perish” (Jn 3.16). They messed the Gospel up for us. Did Peter not have faith when he denied Christ? He used to perform miracles! And he fell straight down and denied Christ. It was God’s mercy that led Peter back to repentance. Judas whom Christ hand picked, amidst all the others who followed him, did he not have faith? He perished!
Not only did he do wrong, but he also perished. And the verse, “But my righteous one shall live by faith, and if he shrinks back,” (Heb 10.38) – where should I place this verse then? Thus the righteous can shrink back; it’s obvious. The verse is clear, it says that it is possible for the faithful to shrink back at a time. But they say as long as you have faith, the kingdom is guaranteed, and nothing else will happen. How can that be? Am I not still alive? Did God take my will away from me? I can do wrong! And if I do wrong and don’t repent, even if I lived right, now I’m away from God and can perish. St Paul says, “Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest remains, let us fear lest any of you be judged to have failed to reach it” (Heb 4.1). So there is a promise of heaven, but some do fail. He also says, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” (Phil 2.12). Where is the fear and trembling in their teaching?
Our teaching does hurt, indeed. The Orthodox teaching, because it is upright, is painful. We don’t bring people to pad them on the back. We care for you and want to lead you to heaven. God didn’t send us to continually say to you that you are good and there isn’t any better. No. Should we fool you? And St Paul prophesied saying, “The time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own liking” (2 Tim 4.3) – gather teachers that will please them with their words. No, we won’t please you with our words. St John the Baptist didn’t please people, he used to rebuke them. But he truly loved them, and cared for them deeply. His words were harsh, and the people loved him, and knew that Truth was in his words. “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit that befits repentance .. He who has two coats, let him share with him who has none” (Lk 3.7,8,10).
And one leaves such text thinking, ‘How can I be this bad? I have to take a stand in my life.’ But if I come to you and tell you that you are good and lack no actions, then I’m fooling you. Where is Christ’s teaching if I do this? Did he not instruct you to repent and change, and do this and not that? If I do such a think then I lead you to forget Christ’s teaching. At times I feel that such teaching, which is also directed towards the ill – one can go to a doctor for a check up, and the doctor is ignorant in his dealings. The doctor knows the illness is difficult, but thinks within himself, “Am I going to tell this person that he is ill and pursue therapy? He’s almost dead anyways” .. “You are well! You are well. Just make sure you eat well and sleep well.” And the doctor sees the illness and can’t find therapy for it, and tells the patient that he is well. And two weeks later that person will be .. extremely well (audience laugh). The doctor comforted the patient,
But comforted him in the wrong way. The shrewd doctor – I saw one doctor yelling at his patients! Why is the doctor angry, why is he upset? Because he is faithful, because he cares for his patient, because he knows the patient is destroying himself. Therefore when you see our teaching admonishing and rebuking you, don’t think it is a heavy burden. Take it as paternal love from the Church. The Church that cares for her children delivers upright teaching, the one that Christ paid for with his blood, and the martyrs followed him. But the teaching that is easy, which widens the gate - the wide gate doesn’t lead to heaven. Where is the narrow gate? The narrow gate means fasting, prayer, ascetics, struggle against sin, tears of repentance continually, love towards enemies regardless of the circumstance.
Christ didn’t mention the wide gate with good words; rather the wide gate is scary. Those who simplify Christianity to such things and widen the gate are cheating the people. And Christ said, “Many are called, but few are chosen” (Mt 22.14), and that those who find the narrow gate are few in number – “The gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few” (Mt 7:13,14). Does that mean that I should torture people? Absolutely not! I do not claim that we, as the Orthodox Church, are ideal and doing the things that should be done; no. I personally am honest with myself and with everyone – we have a lot of shortcomings, especially towards our children. Our meetings are weak.
Our service towards the youth is weak. Our programs with the little children are primitive. The child grows up and sees us ignorant. Of course! Then I must develop myself and create better programs and hold better meetings – but the teaching must remain upright, and environment the same, and the Church remains the Church. And I won’t change anything from the things I received, but I will progress. There isn’t anything wrong with that. We can see what the youth want, and deliver it to them, but in the proper way – not any kind of music, not any kind of spiritual song, not any kind of activity – there is not compromising. It is impossible that one compromise will lead us to Christ; if the way is not upright, then neither will the end be upright. We do not go by a means to an end, we go by the Holies for the Holy – the end is upright and the way to it must be upright.
I cannot do something that will trouble my conscience in order to achieve something that will satisfy my conscience. That is not us. Thus, there are many things that need to be revisited. But I will return to say that I learn from each denomination, we do not have an issue with this. But let us be clear, extremism is not a root in our Church – we hold fast. And if it wasn’t for our preservation and firm hold of the faith, it would’ve been robbed from us. The world testifies that Athanasius and Cyril preserved the faith of the Church. And they are sa’ayda like us. They taught the world Christianity proper the time the Christian Emperor was led astray, and was leading the world astray with him, and Christianity was almost lost. Will I leave all this, and follow in the footsteps of westerners whose Churches are being sold? Just because of the charisma and commotion and because it is good to watch?
Be careful, my beloved, your Church is strong. We are born in wealth. Our Tradition is strong. We have Church Father’s saying to protect us. We have bible interpretation to enrich us; we don’t need anyone to explain the bible to us as he pleases – not us, we are speaking of Fathers from antiquity.
